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 Pereskiopsis graft with rot?

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Lachy
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PostSubject: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:14 pm

G'day guys...

I've got a small pup of L. williamsii caesp. grafted onto Pereskiopsis. I grafted the pup about three weeks ago, and it seems to have taken. However, I've noticed it seems to have taken on a slightly different colour in recent days - namely, a brownish tint is visible in the folds of the skin. Now, I know lophs can do funny things with their colour when grafted, but this looks a little bit suss to me. The graft seems to be firmly attached and there doesn't appear to be any softness in the scion.

So what's the verdict? Normal growth or *gulp* orange rot?

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gilligan

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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Apr 18, 2009 7:58 pm

i think it's fine from the pic.. i;ve got heaps that are a purple red colour, outside udner shadecloth, right next to them are bright green lophs...
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Apr 18, 2009 8:01 pm

Well that's a bit of a relief. I'm pretty new to this grafting business.
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cryptocarpa
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:23 pm

Hey Lachy,
I think it will be fine. Several of mine have done the same thing soon after grafting. Sometimes it does go on to become orange rot but it is usually gone in a couple of months . Sometimes they go quite yellow/ orange then grow out to a lush green. I have got excited once or twice thinking a verigate was developing. No such luck! My guess is it is something to do with infection in the graft union as plants often have patches of dead tissue in the graft union when you pull then off. Eventually new tissue grows through and around it and normal(if you can call it that on perry) growth starts.
Might be to do with graft incompatibility too.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Apr 25, 2009 11:21 am

Well, I've returned from work this weekend to see that the graft is powering along quite happily. At this stage, I would say that the graft is most likely a success.
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Kada
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Apr 25, 2009 3:20 pm

looks good to me Smile looks light related.
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Lachy
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Apr 25, 2009 4:01 pm

Kada wrote:
looks light related.

Too much light? I've got it growing on my desk near a not-particularly-sunny window, with a fluoro desk lamp on a timer to provide additional light.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:37 am

i would say about 95% of my pereskiopsis grafts go "sunburn colour". i *think* its light related, but it seems no matter what light level i use they still do this. i have talked to many others that see this as well, especially with pereskiopssi. anyway, yours does look healthy and not liek orange/rust rot Smile
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Lachy
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat May 02, 2009 5:49 pm

Well, it's definitely not rot. It's getting to be quite a chubby little loph now.

As it appears to be my first successful pup graft to peres, I've done a couple more to keep it company. I've had very poor results with seedlings, however these pups do seem a lot more resistant to rot and other such things that have plagued me in the past.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:19 pm

Just a quick update on this little bloke...



It seems that there was no rot, and instead the loph is powering along quite happily. It's now approaching 3cm and is cranking out pups of its own. My only dilemma now is figure out whether to allow it to grow as a caespitose form, or to start grafting the pups. There appears to be a small orange spot just under the skin, but since it doesn't appear to be growing in size I think I'll just keep an eye on it rather than doing anything too drastic.

A seedling loph that I grafted some time ago and spent about two months doing precisely nothing... now, in the last week or so has taken off and is growing so fast it has actually split. The cut seems to have healed quickly, so again I think I'll just leave this one alone and see what transpires.

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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Wed Jun 17, 2009 11:45 am

Looking good lachy! yeah i have some that pupped as soon as they took and some that didnt , all from the same batch of seed. Wonder if it has something to do with how much of a connectin to stock was made. I dont really want to cut the pups off ,yet anyway but might have to in future.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Thu Jun 18, 2009 12:06 pm

Lachy wrote:
Just a quick update on this little bloke...

There appears to be a small orange spot just under the skin, but since it doesn't appear to be growing in size I think I'll just keep an eye on it rather than doing anything too drastic.




Lachy,

I was looking at that little orange patch too, could be bacteria could be some form of oxidization from a bug bite or skin damage. I would do the same for the moment keep an eye on it, just remember don't ever cut it out ! The skin on lophos is their only defence once you break the skin the game is over. Keep the skin nice and dry over the coming weeks and allow good air circulation.

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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:27 pm

Cheers for the advice... as far as I can tell, the little orange patch is simply a scar of some sort. I don't see any signs of it growing.

Given that the loph's skin is its only defence against rot, is there a safe way to remove pups for grafting without introducing pathogens to the plant?
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Fri Jun 19, 2009 9:39 pm

Yeah it is safe to remove them just use a thin blade, make a small cut and keep them dry. winter is probably not the best time to do it.

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Lachy
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Fri Jun 19, 2009 11:44 pm

Yeah, I thought that would be the case. At any rate, the pups are too small to remove right now. I think I'll wait a while before grafting them.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:11 pm

Hmm... I'm facing further issues with this graft. It seems to be growing quite happily, noticeably increasing in size every week. However, now a few similar orange scar-like marks have appeared on the skin similar to the photo above. I'll be honest... I'm concerned.

If this is orange rot, is there any systemic fungicides that are worth trying? I'm not growing this loph for *any* sort of consumption, so if there's a toxic chemical that may save it I am all ears...
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:50 pm

Hi Lachy.

I'm not 100% convinced that is orange rot going by the picture on the previous page of this thread. please post a more recent pic if possible so that others can help with an accurate diagnosis.

have you not ruled out spider mites/rust mite damage? i've seen some pretty similiar looking damage on some of my cacti from mites especially in winter when plants are kept dry. although with mites usually the damage is more spread out not concentrated like on that loph. scratch If the loph body has been kept dry then heres hoping its spider mite damage (yes this is the only case you actually hope for spider mite damage hehe). if its SM damage then it will probably scar and take ages to grow out but at least its not terminal. try a miticide if deemed appropriate. the mites themselves are ridiculously small and practically invisible.

Fungal rots usually require some form of physical damage to the plant body to gain an entry and foothold. IME a hungry caterillar makes a prime vector. and/or if its been misted/subjected to high humidity/kept moist then some sort of rot may be more likely as bacteria thrive in those conditions.
try some sulphur powder or Fungorid if the diagnosis is of orange rot.
lightly squeeze the body around the affected areas. hopefully it will be relatively firm and the same as the normal/unaffected tissue. make sure your fingernails are short before doing this though lol.

i'd say its still a good sign that the plant is apparently growing well though.

don't take my word for it though. HN and cryptocarpa seem to be knowledgable regarding to these matters and I could well be way off.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:03 pm

I have some with similar damage. Occasionally this type of rust is caused by mite but then the damage seems to be more spread over the surface as Lewis said. Now I haven't got round to chopping an infected plant open but I think the cause may be an infected graft union. Several times when I have accidentally bumped a scion off this stock I have noticed the graft union is a patch of this orange tissue with thin bundles of healthy vascular tissue growing through it. Perhaps when this happens the infection in the necrotic layer in the graft union spreads into the healthy tissue of the scion. It seems to happen particularly when the temps are cold and the scions growing slowly. It may also be something to do with stock scion incompatibility and subsequent rejection.
Anyway I have kept my plants that did this and some have totally karked it while others become a mass of orange rot damaged tissue with occasional patches that are healthy. On one scion the main head has almost totally gone like this but it has a ring of almost perfectly healthy pups. I don't really know about saving them with fungicides. I prefer to let them try to grow it out. There are a wide range of fungi and other microbes that could be responsible but most fungicides are only targeted at a small group.
So your plant may improve when the weather warms up. I know this doesn't really help but it's the best I could do.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:38 pm

Show us an updated pic Lachy ! I agree it sounds like the typical orange rust that begins on the skin and slowly works its way in. Lophos are very prone to this. Last year I lost 3 or 4 this year none Smile

Here is an old thread I started about it. http://forum.auscactiforum.net/pests-diseases-id-control-prevention-f8/orange-rot-rust-beginning-on-the-skin-warning-some-viewers-may-find-distressing-t197.htm


What are your growing conditions ? Outside? Lighting? Air circulation ? Temperatures.

From my experience with this stuff the best way to deal with it is to prevent it before it appears. Air flow/circulation and a nice well draining soil is the key. You need to let the soil dry out "completely" between watering as the cooler weather approaches.

For ideas on treatment when the damage has appeared see that thread above, fair bit of info in there.

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cryptocarpa
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:20 am

Just been reading through that thread H.N.
I don't mean to contradict what anyone has said as it is only my opinion on this subject and I don't have proof either way. But I think the rot is systemic and coming from the graft union. I have many plants with both rust mite and normal mites but most do not get the orange blotches. It is even less common on plants on own roots, in fact I can't think of an own roots plant in my collection that has had this problem. Of course this may be because the own root plants turn to mush and die quickly compared to grafted ones but this happens very rarely and it seems the orange blotches are quite common on grafted plants. About one in ten grafted Lophs show this problem to some extent in my experience and like I said in the last post it seems to be a problem almost specific to Lophs on Pereskiopsis. That suggests to me problems with the graft or stock/scion compatability.
For me this problem starts with a slight discolouration of the scion that almost looks a bit like veriegation starting. Then the blotches develop. When rust is caused by mites it is usually just on the surface and can be stopped by fixing the mite problem that causes it.
It is just my opinion. Hopefully we'll work it out as it can be disturbing seeing this happen.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Thu Jul 09, 2009 11:52 am

Hey Crypto.

I am more than happy to hear your opinion and experience on this subject, I think It really helps to think from a different perspective. I think the graft union idea has merit and could well be one of the causes of this issue.

What I find very interesting is this. Most if not all of the plants effected by this rot are less than 1 year after the graft was made and it tends not to effect own roots plants.

A few points for thought:

On the plant I cut open their was no "visible" rot inside near the union. There was however, visible rot on the skin near the union.

Stock does not seem to make a difference. I have had it with hylo +loph, Tricho + loph and of course Pereskiopsis + Loph.

The ssp of lophophora does not seem to matter. Had it with Williamsii, Diffusa, Jourdaniana.

The scion tends not to go "soft" like usual orange rot.

Plants CAN and do recover from it. I have several plants that have fully recovered and are growing strong.


Anymore ideas ?

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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Jul 11, 2009 9:11 am

That's interesting...
I have the prob on normal lophs, diffusa and fricii but not a sign of it on koeresii. It is interesting that plants stay hard and recover. Unlike typical orange rot. It appears to me to start with some problems very low on the scion near the graft union then spread to discolour the plant. Next I get small dots of orange near the top then the larger sunken blotches appear. I did not have the problem with grafts done early in the growing season but got it on ones done in around january. It didn't appear untill the weather got cold and the scions had already grown a cm or two by then. Perhaps stock scion incompatability is something to do with it. But it is strange that you have the same problem with other stocks.
I will do a few trials this summer and see if more information is emerges.
It must have hurt to see it develop on the prized jourdaniana form. Crying or Very sad
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Jul 11, 2009 4:23 pm

Well, I've finally got around to taking a photo of the loph in question...



As you can see, aside from a few small brown spots, it's still green, plump and by all appearances quite healthy.

To answer your questions; this graft is being grown indoors on my desk. The pot was sitting in a shallow saucer of water on a heating pad - this seems to encourage growth in pereskiopsis - however since the marks started to appear it has been grown in drier conditions. It receives natural light supplemented by two compact fluorescent tubes and generally the airflow is good, with a typical ambient temperature of around 17 degrees or thereabouts. I'm guessing the humidity is fairly low.

The whole situation kind of puzzles me... on the plus side, the graft is growing really, really well and is pupping profusely. Even though the marks indicate some sort of stress to the plant, it is still chugging along quite happily.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:30 pm

Lachy,

That is most definitely the topic of conversation, the typical rust/rot of grafted Lohpophora. It still looks superficial and at this stage is not harming the plant all the much. I would personally treat it with a fungicide as I believe this has saved a few of my plants.

Please Lachy can you post a photo of the graft union ? It would be very interesting to see if this area is effected ?

Thanks
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:18 pm

Cheers for your help...

Here's a photo of the union. I'm no expert on grafts, but to my eye I can't see any signs of rot or infection.

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