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 Pereskiopsis graft with rot?

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Hellonasty
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:49 pm

Yeah I agree nothing I can see ! As you said looks like a healthy plant.


Nice photo too Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:27 pm

Well, I've give the plant a decent zap with some Fongarid and copper oxychloride. Hopefully that should nuke the rot, and if I can keep the plant warm and dry with a bit of luck it will recover.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:13 pm

Thats what I would have done Smile Good luck mate.

I have read of several experienced cultivators using Copper Oxychloride and a very small amount of water to make a paste. They mold the paste with their fingers or a paint brush and push it into areas effected by rot. I have never done this myself but it could be worth a shot in the future.

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KanJe
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:52 pm

That's a really interesting technique HN, I havn't heard of that one.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:20 am

I have been meaning to do this for some time. It is a L,fricii. At first I thought that my theory about the graft union being related to the rot had been proven wrong but after having a closer look I am not so sure.
It is easy to see the necrotic tissue in the graft union and the healthy growth that has grown through it. What interests me is the areas of almost transparent tissue surrounding the necrotic spots(see the last two pics). It looks like this clear tissue is a response by the plant to isolate the infection, and that this sort of tissue does not exist in the healthy section of the inner tissue of the scion. On close inspection it appears as if the clearer tissue extends up into the body of the scion into the mushroom shaped area above the graft union. It also appears to me that there is some correlation between the areas of necrotic tissue in the graft union and the patches of orange rot on the surface. If you look closely you can see that there are small patches of necrotic tissue on the skin on either side of the graft union that have been isolated by the healthy tissue growing through it. If it were possible to rewind the growth the healthy tissue would not be there.
Perhaps the entire scion was once infected by the bacteria in the graft union and then gradually the infection was isolated and the healthy tissue grew through while the infected growth collapsed. When the parts of the scion that are orange were forming they would have been deep inside the body of the scion where the growth point is located. This point would have been much closer to the graft union at that time as the scion would have been a lot smaller then. If the infection develops slowly and does not kill the plant this could explain the gradual discoloration that occurs prior to the orange spots as well as the eventual growing out of the damage and the ring of healthy pups I have on other plants like this..
I may be way off but I think the pictures are interesting anyway. As is often the case the experiment raises more more questions that it answers.

"Mystery upon mystery, the gateway to the manifold secrets" (Lao Tzu)




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KanJe
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:16 am

Really interesting work Crypto.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:58 pm

Outstanding work Crypto. Those pictures are fascinating, you can actually see where the vascular tissue has fused and it even appears as if it has grown from the pereskiopsis into the scion !! really interesting stuff.


I can definitely see bacteria near the union, and by looking at the vascular tissue it is easy to see how it "could" be transported to the surface.


Food for thought:

Could it also be possible the cause of the rot near the union is due to the superior rot resistance of pereskiopsis. What I mean is this. Pereskiopsis love wet feet and this causes us give it an abundance of water, now regardless of whether there is bacteria in and around the roots pereskiopsis just never seems to rot. Now if the pereskiopsis was to inadvertantly transport some of the bacteria along with nutrients and water up to the scion could this also be a cause of the problem ??

Any ideas ? As Crypto more questions than answers ?

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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:04 pm

Quote :
Pereskiopsis love wet feet and this causes us
give it an abundance of water, now regardless of whether there is
bacteria in and around the roots pereskiopsis just never seems to rot.
Now if the pereskiopsis was to inadvertantly transport some of the
bacteria along with nutrients and water up to the scion could this also
be a cause of the problem ??

That seems like quite a likely hypothesis to me. My only question then is why is the Pereskiopsis not affected by the pathogens and yet the scions are particularly vulnerable?
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Wed Jul 29, 2009 9:23 pm

A good question Lachy, and one I can't really answer except to say you are correct. Pereskiopsis has extreme resistance to all types of rot whilst Lophophora does not.

You normally attribute hardiness and resistance to rot based on the climate of origin of the particular species. For example if a species grows (and thrives) in an area with a high annual rain fall you would assume the plant has a good resistance to a wide variety of bacteria.

Pereskiopsis are native to Mexico which depending on location averages about 400-700mm per year. Out of interest Sydney is between 1500-2200mm per year. So I guess the rule above does not apply to Pereskiopsis.

I have no knowledge regarding the biology of each plant, which I guess would be need to really get a good understanding.

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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:41 am

It is possible to rot Pereskiopsis. ( Embarassed Laughing ).

It's just incredibly difficult.

It's hardy to other extremes too, like drought for example. It's capable of surviving 2 years(sic) without water, right Crypto

p.s very interesting photos too crypto.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sun Aug 09, 2009 12:28 pm

Well, a further update...

The graft continues to grow, and the orange patches don't appear to be growing in size. However, there does appear to be a few more of them. So, as a last resort I've made a paste of copper oxychloride and liberally painted the whole plant:



Hopefully this does the trick.

Slightly off-topic now... It's been interesting to see how the pereskiopsis has pumped up the scion so that the morphology of the plant has visibly changed. The scion was taken as an offset of a caespitose L. williamsii that displayed fairly typical williamsii rib formation. The scion now has significantly less-clearly defined ribs.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:39 pm

can he breathe?
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:29 pm

He seems to be okay. Wink

I'm impressed at the resillience of this graft. It's still cranking out pups all over the shop. If I can nail this little issue before the summer, I'm eager to begin grafting a few pups. My only concern is that it may open the main plant up to rot, resulting in its total loss.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:58 pm

Well, it seems the copper oxychloride is doing the trick... or at very least, is holding the orange rot at bay. The patches seem to have stopped forming and some even seem to be healing, leaving minor scars.

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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:11 pm

That looks better Lachy. Smile

i know how much of a pain this orange rot can be, i just lost a small grafted Ortegocactus to this, not a huge loss as the plant the offset came from (also grafted) does not have the rot. and self-rooted ortego is A-ok.
and a pere grafted Turbinicarpus polaskii la bonita seedling also. Sad

this problem seems to peak in winter IME, possibly due to less regular maintenance on my behalf. problem is if i keep plants completely dry = spider mite
or slightly moist (like mist spraying to keep down forementioned mites)= orange rot.
still its strange how one plant out of 5 identical species all grafted on the same stock species and under the same conditions, pots located right next to each other will develop the rot whilst its siblings are fine.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Sat Sep 05, 2009 8:38 pm

I've since given the loph another coat of copper oxychloride and I think I may now have knocked the orange rot problem on the head. The intense treatment seems to have no side effects on the plant, despite my initial concerns that it would scar the skin. It's not the prettiest solution, but if it prevents the loss of a nice plant, so be it.

In the meantime the loph is absolutely pumping out new pups. I'm now torn between letting it form a clump or grafting the pups to fresh stocks come summer. Decisions decisions...
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Tue Jan 19, 2010 3:48 pm

Well, it seems that the orange rot has returned, and again, I'm painting the afflicted parts with copper oxychloride paste. Unfortunately, about all this does is keep the rot in check; it doesn't seem to cure the problem, not to mention the fact that it is pretty unsightly in itself. Has anyone come up with better long-term treatments?
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:09 am

Alright, I might just throw my few cents..

First I have won over orange-rot in two occasions, I sprayed it with a combo of 2 fungicides + 1 insecticide, actually the first time I used commercial chemicals for my plants. It was also lopho on pere. One of them survived and is still alive, and I keep stealing his pups for further grafts, and in the other occasion the pere collapsed soon after rot was healed and I had to transgraft all pups, but it worked and they are all alive and have not showed orange signs since... All of the pups I have grafted to other stocks are most from these two -formerly infected with orange rot- grafts, but I have seen no sign that the disease propagated with the pups.

Regardings lopho caespitosa, kada will have more to say and show, caespitosa are said to pup so much they are a bit 'useless' and not pretty after a while. I suggest you go ahead and graft some more. You have possibilities of forming a orange-rot free graft, as people say it might be hard to get it off lophos...

Crypto's photos are impressive and revealing too. Thanks for the sacrifice mate!

Now for my own theory, or what I thought till now, and to be honest I did not change my mind, nor do I believe that this rust we all seem to be familiar with is the same single pathogen all over...

I have had those lopho on pere grafts catching 'orange rot' after getting wet after sunburn. It's also possible to happen by getting wet after mite damage and I have sure seen it after fungus gnats little wormy larvae have chewed grafted seedling of an astro asteria.

In all those occasions I thought it's orange rot that took advantage of the hole in the skin armour.. and wetty situation...

Orange spots might form in the scion union base, as a result of a poor sterilization techniques, but who knows if they can enter the scion from there? I know that in pereskiopsis, some pathogen can travel down the vascular ring, not sure if this is orange rot, probably so...

I will be putting photos one of these days...

Another similar mystery and even more so is the notorious 'black rot', common with Trichocerei.
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PostSubject: Re: Pereskiopsis graft with rot?   Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:55 am

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